[goda]

Originally Posted by winmail

1 Kings 8:54 And it was so, that when Solomon had made an end of praying all this prayer and supplication unto the LORD, he arose from before
THE ALTAR of the LORD, from KNEELING ON HIS KNEES with his hands spread up to heaven.

tanong ko lang po... Anu ba ang altar?

Place? Or a graven image made by man?

Santo ba ito niluhuran niya? Tao ba ito na gawa sa bato, kahoy, ginto?

Hindi nyo kasi pwedeng i connect yung mga santo nyo na niluluhuran niyo sa altar ng old testament.

W/c is ang altar ay hindi graven image MADE BY MAN'S KNOWLEDGE.

Anu ba meron sa altar? Puro mga santo ba?

[shamayin]

Originally Posted by winmail

1 Kings 8:54 And it was so, that when Solomon had made an end of praying all this prayer and supplication unto the LORD, he arose from before
THE ALTAR of the LORD, from KNEELING ON HIS KNEES with his hands spread up to heaven.

siyempre nagdadasal eh...kaya nakaluhod sa harap ng altar...
pilit mong isinasaksak dyan sa talata yun pagluhod ninyo sa mga rebulto...eh wala namang rebulto ng mga diyos diyosan diyan tulad ng ipinipilit mo

Originally Posted by winmail

Well we are not dependable in Bible alone.. like the Protestant..

tama...dahil sa taong sinungaling kayo nagtitiwala at indi sa Diyos...kya ayan pati sa kahoy at batong inukit tinuruan kayong sumamba tapos ang sabi veneration lang daw...kahit nagpapatayan ng mga deboto mklapit lang sa itim na rebulto veneration lang daw indi daw worship


Romans 3:4
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, "THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED."

[winmail]

Originally Posted by shamayin

siyempre nagdadasal eh...kaya nakaluhod sa harap ng altar...
pilit mong isinasaksak dyan sa talata yun pagluhod ninyo sa mga rebulto...eh wala namang rebulto ng mga diyos diyosan diyan tulad ng ipinipilit mo



tama...dahil sa taong sinungaling kayo nagtitiwala at indi sa Diyos...kya ayan pati sa kahoy at batong inukit tinuruan kayong sumamba tapos ang sabi veneration lang daw...kahit nagpapatayan ng mga deboto mklapit lang sa itim na rebulto veneration lang daw indi daw worship


Romans 3:4
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, "THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED."

Nandito nanaman ang Bastos na accuser

1 Chronicles 15:29

As the ark of the covenant of the LORD was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David dancing and celebrating, she despised him in her hear

i think na bagay sayo ang verse na yan @shamayin..

kasi kahit si David nag-prosisyon gamit ang ark of Covenant..

[winmail]

Originally Posted by goda

tanong ko lang po... Anu ba ang altar?

Place? Or a graven image made by man?

Santo ba ito niluhuran niya? Tao ba ito na gawa sa bato, kahoy, ginto?

Hindi nyo kasi pwedeng i connect yung mga santo nyo na niluluhuran niyo sa altar ng old testament.

W/c is ang altar ay hindi graven image MADE BY MAN'S KNOWLEDGE.

Anu ba meron sa altar? Puro mga santo ba?

Saint is the symbols of Christian while Cherub is and Snake are the Symbols of Hebrew in OT



YAn po ang altar sa Panahon ni David

[sevenshadows]

Originally Posted by unleash97

my, oh my, tnt

cheers!

LOL

though there are no exclusive truth, there is an absolute truth. if you were to say "there is no absolute truth, and thats absolutely true" theres no point in saying it, tnt. that as agnostics you do not claim exclusive truth -and that includes your statement, and by that maxim it perforce to tell us that it is also untrue. so, where this idealism go? tnt

That is a very valid question and I think you are definitely on the spot in saying that our position about the truth seems to be paradoxical. I certainly will not blame anyone that sees it to be that way.

Since you belong to ancient Christianity maybe it is better that I explain it this way... We don't mind carrying a very great burden that is the cross of uncertainty and doubt in the absence of both rational and empirical proofs. Although we are very critical, that is as critical as men can possibly get - we will accept proven "truths" as they are realized. We bow down to no God defined by any religion, but if I see and prove with my "own eyes" your Lord Jesus Christ resurrection of the dead - you can expect me to be counted as a brother in your faith.

telling people that they'd be thrown to hell for doing evil is not necessarily throwing them to hell; they still retain their volition to a two predetermined ends. what would civil society be, the courts and penal statutes, if this were to be the norm?
killing in the name of God sounds very terrible to modern ears, but it is not uncommon even in our society that law enforcers cripple, maime or kill criminals in the name of the law -we even applaud such acts as a heroic feat.
when christianity saw itself in the verge of losing its faith and tradition, the christian civilization it laboured to give birth, and to continue its posterity, the legacy, to future generations, it is stupidity and cowardice not to take up arms for the defence of what they hold dear. galvanized to take arms, the people charged into the battle frontlines, shouting "for the glory of God!" for the survival of religion from imminent eradication, materializing the spiritual battle between good and evil, in a time where conflicts of religious convictions can not be settled by friendly negotiation and which the sword decides -fighting in the name of God becomes the least of all evils.
that is their reality by then, and you shouldn't judge their acts by the standards of today who are in a different situation than we are.

Let me just make it clear that I was referring to the preachers of Abrahamic faiths (and in Symbianize's TnB it is mainly with Protestants and Muslims) who intimidate non-believers that if they do not accept a certain Holy Text or their own revealed absolute truth, these infidels/non-believers will risk eternal damnation.

This is way too far from your notion of having a stable society or the "battle between good and evil".

[shamayin]

Originally Posted by winmail

Nandito nanaman ang Bastos na accuser

1 Chronicles 15:29

As the ark of the covenant of the LORD was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David dancing and celebrating, she despised him in her hear

i think na bagay sayo ang verse na yan @shamayin..

kasi kahit si David nag-prosisyon gamit ang ark of Covenant..

gnun hehe...nsan dyan yun mga idols ni David meron ba...pilit mo kasi pinalalabas sa Bible eh kandapilipit ka na nga...alam mo namang indi turo yan ng bible di ba...yan ay turo ng mga pope ninyo na infallible daw...

a picture is worth a thousand words @winmail
si David nagcelebrate...nagsasayaw nga eh
nsan dyan yun lumuhod ska yumayakap sa mga idols tulad nito
ayun oh pinupunasan pa...ganyan ba yun ginawa ni David>

[sevenshadows]

Originally Posted by winmail

Actually sa ngayon nahihirapan kaming e counter ang agrument ni @Aliester lalo na ngayon ginagamit nyang reference ang Leading Bible scholar na si Bart D. Erman na isang agnostic..

Kudos for your humility.

No wonder even the great atheist Christopher Hitchens would often times spar with Catholic scholars and hold them as formidable opponents. (Muslims and Protestants, including me, should learn a thing or two from you.)

I use Bart, extensively on the subject of free will. That is his only work (for me) that can be universally applied. If you were referring to his other works, mind you they were made in the light of a Protestant theological background. The funny thing is his works regarding St. Paul are used extensively by Muslims against Christianity. I feel that they haven't read his most important work.

[watamoves]

Originally Posted by unleash97

what we entertain here are questions pertaining to catholic beliefs, not your personal sentiments. besides, your views are unsolicited, we are not asking you of it, tnt

why so defensive? and besides thats not my personal sentiments, many people also think of that, not only me..

[chijay]

paulit ulit yung grounds ng pinagdedebatihan.. tapos pag narebuttal, mag lalay low ng onti, tapos ibabalik ulit.

paulit ulit... naka unli! parang wala na lang magawa sa buhay... makapag post lang.

[winmail]

Originally Posted by shamayin

gnun hehe...nsan dyan yun mga idols ni David meron ba...pilit mo kasi pinalalabas sa Bible eh kandapilipit ka na nga...alam mo namang indi turo yan ng bible di ba...yan ay turo ng mga pope ninyo na infallible daw...

a picture is worth a thousand words @winmail
si David nagcelebrate...nagsasayaw nga eh
nsan dyan yun lumuhod ska yumayakap sa mga idols tulad nito
ayun oh pinupunasan pa...ganyan ba yun ginawa ni David>

Same as usual thaat was act of Veneration




2 Samuel 6 - David Brings the Ark of God into Jerusalem



1. (1-2) Bringing the ark of God to Jerusalem.

Again David gathered all the choice men of Israel, thirty thousand. And David arose and went with all the people who were with him from Baale Judah to bring up from there the ark of God, whose name is called by the Name, the LORD of Hosts, who dwells between the cherubim.

a. David gathered all the choice men of Israel: David gathered so many of his best soldiers because bringing the ark to Jerusalem was an important step towards providing a central place of worship for all of Israel.

b. To bring up from there the ark of God: This was the Ark of the Covenant, which God commanded Moses to make more than 400 years before David's time. It was a wood box (the word ark means "box" or "chest") completely covered with gold and with an ornate gold lid or top known as the mercy seat.

i. The ark of God was 3 feet 9 inches long, 2 feet 3 inches wide and 2 feet 3 inches high. In it were the tablets of the law that Moses brought down from Mount Sinai, a jar of manna, and the Aaron's rod that miraculously budded as a confirmation of his leadership.

c. The LORD of Hosts, who dwells between the cherubim: The ark of God represented the immediate presence and glory of God in Israel. David considered it a high priority to bring the ark out of obscurity and back into prominence. David wanted Israel to be alive with a sense of the near presence and glory of God.

i. The last we saw of the ark of God was when it came back from the land of the Philistines in 1 Samuel 7:1. It sat at the house of Abinadab for some 70 years. David had a great motive - to emphasize the presence and glory of God in Israel.

2. (3-5) The Ark is brought out with great joy.

So they set the ark of God on a new cart, and brought it out of the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill; and Uzzah and Ahio, the sons of Abinadab, drove the new cart. And they brought it out of the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill, accompanying the ark of God; and Ahio went before the ark. Then David and all the house of Israel played music before the LORD on all kinds of instruments of fir wood, on harps, on stringed instruments, on tambourines, on sistrums, and on cymbals.

a. So they set the ark of God on a new cart: Transporting the ark on a cart was against God's specific command. The ark was designed to be carried (Exodus 25:12-15) and was only to be carried by Levites of the family of Koath (Numbers 4:15).

i. Why did God command the ark to be carried? It was probably because there was to be nothing mechanical about the ark, which represented His presence. "The ark was nothing less than the burden of the Lord, and the burden of the Lord was to be carried on the hearts of the Levites." (Redpath)

ii. We can imagine what these men thought. "Look - we have a new cart for the ark of God. God will be very pleased at our fancy new cart." They thought that a new technology or luxury could cover over their ignorant disobedience.

iii. "We want God's presence very much, don't we? But we like to hitch His presence to some of our new carts. We like to add Him to our list of organizations, to load Him on top of the mechanics of a busy life, and then drive. How much of our service is really in the energy of the flesh, I wonder! So often we put forth our hands, but not our hearts." (Redpath)

iv. "It is not new things we need, but new fire." (John Wesley)

v. This Philistines transported the ark on a cart in 1 Samuel 6:10-11. They got away with it because they were Philistines, but God expected more from His people. Israel was to take their example from God's Word, not from the innovations of the Philistines.

b. Uzzah and Ahio, the sons of Abinadab, drove the new cart: The meaning of the names of these sons of Abinadab paint a meaningful picture. Uzzah means "strength" and Ahio means "friendly."

i. Much service for the LORD is like this - a new cart, a big production, with strength leading and friendly out front - yet all done without inquiring of God or looking to His will. Surely David prayed for God's blessing on this big production, but he didn't inquire of God regarding the production itself. This was a good thing done the wrong way.

c. Then David and all the house of Israel played music before the LORD: Judging from the importance of the occasion and all the instruments mentioned, this was quite a production. The atmosphere was joyful, exciting, and engaging. The problem was that none of it pleased God because it was all in disobedience to His word.

i. We are often tempted to judge a worship experience by how it makes us feel. But when we realize that worship is about pleasing God, we are driven to His word so we can know how He wants to be worshipped.

ii. It's hard to grab hold of in our consumer-oriented culture, but it isn't all about what pleases us. It's all about what pleases God.

3. (6-7) Uzzah is struck dead for touching the ark.

And when they came to Nachon's threshing floor, Uzzah put out his hand to the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen stumbled. Then the anger of the LORD was aroused against Uzzah, and God struck him there for his error; and he died there by the ark of God.

a. When they came to Nachon's threshing floor: At a threshing floor the whole stalks of wheat are gathered and the chaff is separated from the wheat. There was a lot of chaff in this production, and God will blow away the chaff at Nachon's threshing floor.

c. David danced before the LORD with all his might: David didn't hold back anything in his own expression of worship. He didn't dance out of obligation but out of heartfelt worship. He was glad to bring the ark of the LORD into Jerusalem according to God's word.

i. This expression of David's heart showed that he had a genuine emotional link to God. There are two great errors in this area - the error of making emotions the center of our Christian life and the error of an emotionally detached Christian life. In the Christian life emotions must not be manipulated and they must not be repressed.

ii. We don't think that dancing is strange when the baseball player rounds the bases after the game winning home run. We don't think it is strange when the winning touchdown is scored or when our own child scores a goal. We think nothing at hands raised at a concert or a touchdown. Why should we think them strange in worship to God?

d. David was wearing a linen ephod: It is a mistake to think that David was immodest. 1 Chronicles 15:27 indicates that David was dressed just like all the other priests and Levites in this procession.