[unleash97]

Originally Posted by clifford6ngr

The rising of the sun is highly empirical compared to human decisions and that doesn't solve to the contradiction of the existence of omniscient god with freewill..
Just because you know the outcome of a consistent occurrence does not make you an omniscient being..
If we assume that you are all-knowing an can predict my decision to kill someone tomorrow then that decision of mine obviously will be done for you so you can't be wrong.. how can we call that freewill..
And if we assume that you don't know whether I will kill someone tomorrow or not then you are indeed not all-knowing because you do not know.

uh-uhm, you literally take my metaphor at face value, tnt
the point with that metaphor, as i have previously said, is that the act of knowing things, such as to know the future, does not involve acting on the thing known. can i change something by merely thinking of it? of course not, i must make an act rather of will and move things, not simply to think.
as i just told you in my post, without a knowledge of metaphysics and epistemology, you will only drift to the current of sophisms, lol

[hackerz14]

i already posted it here... para sa mga di pa nakakabasa ito...


Can a being be Omnipotent, Omniscient and grant free will?

An example:
Call that being "The Creator of multiverse Z."

1.) The Creator of multiverse Z creates the following:
A.) A universe that has a beginning with many outcomes, ie. multiverse Z.
B.) For each time point Ti from the beginning, there are choices X1 to Xi (i≥2).
C.) Each choice at time point Ti leads to a different set of choices after Ti.
D.) Because the Creator of multiverse Z has created each choice and event in multiverse Z, the creator of multiverse Z is aware of all events with respect to multiverse Z at any time point, irrespective of the choice made at time point Ti.
E.) Creator Z creates the emergence of agent A with free will into multiverse Z at time point Ti (i=1 with respect to agent A not the multiverse Z).
F.) Agent A with free will becomes aware of past events, is aware of his present situation, and knows the future is coming, but is unable to be aware of the future.
G.) Because agent A has free will and choices X1 to Xi (i≥2) at timepoint Ti (i≥2), it is logically impossible for the Creator to know the choice of agent A until the choice is made even though the Creator is aware of all events in multiverse Z.

Therefore, Creator of multiverse Z can logically co-exist with agent A with free will and know everything that is logically knowable of multiverse Z. Creator of multiverse Z can also logically do whatever it wills to do and suffers nothing it does not will to suffer.

[kmadz]

Originally Posted by hackerz14

i already posted it here... para sa mga di pa nakakabasa ito...


Can a being be Omnipotent, Omniscient and grant free will?

An example:
Call that being "The Creator of multiverse Z."

1.) The Creator of multiverse Z creates the following:
A.) A universe that has a beginning with many outcomes, ie. multiverse Z.
B.) For each time point Ti from the beginning, there are choices X1 to Xi (i≥2).
C.) Each choice at time point Ti leads to a different set of choices after Ti.
D.) Because the Creator of multiverse Z has created each choice and event in multiverse Z, the creator of multiverse Z is aware of all events with respect to multiverse Z at any time point, irrespective of the choice made at time point Ti.
E.) Creator Z creates the emergence of agent A with free will into multiverse Z at time point Ti (i=1 with respect to agent A not the multiverse Z).
F.) Agent A with free will becomes aware of past events, is aware of his present situation, and knows the future is coming, but is unable to be aware of the future.
G.) Because agent A has free will and choices X1 to Xi (i≥2) at timepoint Ti (i≥2), it is logically impossible for the Creator to know the choice of agent A until the choice is made even though the Creator is aware of all events in multiverse Z.

Therefore, Creator of multiverse Z can logically co-exist with agent A with free will and know everything that is logically knowable of multiverse Z. Creator of multiverse Z can also logically do whatever it wills to do and suffers nothing it does not will to suffer.

-nosebleed ako!

[rafh27]

kwento lang to TS aa?

si Jose ay disbeliever, dahil sa kanyang curiosity nagpahula siya kay madam zenny,
ayun..nun nagpahula siya, ang sabi ni manghuhula, makakatae ka sa taas ng taxi.. natawa si jose at sbay sabi ng (kasinungalingan)
Pero si God, alam niya na mahuhulog talaga ang tae mo sa oras ng pag uwi mo.
ngayon nun umalis na si jose sa manghuhula, nagutom siya, so bumili si jose ng spaghetti sa restaurant, ngayon alam ni God na marumi na yun spaghetti, pero hindi nakialam si God o sabihan o pgilin si jose n wag kainin yan kasi freewill niya yun..
so ayun enjoy na enjoy si jose, pagkalipas ng 15 minutes, biglang sumakit tiyan ni jose woo.. nagmadali ito humanap ng cr, ngunit out of order lahat..(naku naman) so may nakitang jeepney si jose, pasakay na siya, biglang naalala niya na malayo ang route ng jeep na ito, at napaisip siya na mag taxi na lang.. ayun nataranta na si jose, pinipigilan niya talaga ang kanyang tae na mahulog (si God hindi nakialam, kasi freewill yun ni jose, pero alam ni God mahuhulog talaga yun) ngayon, na plat ang tire ng taxi hahaha, pilit talaga pigilan ni jose, pero ayun POOF nahulog na, kahit gaano pa pagpigil ni jose, gusto na talaga ni tae mahulog..
freewill ni jose kumain, pumili ng masasakyan at pigilan ang paghulog ng tae at si God naman na all-knowing, alam niya na mahuhulog tae ni jose kahit hindi siya makikialam..


kwento lang po ito na nagbibigay ng ng sagot kay ts..

jazakallahu khaer

[sivre009]

Originally Posted by hackerz14

i already posted it here... para sa mga di pa nakakabasa ito...


Can a being be Omnipotent, Omniscient and grant free will?

An example:
Call that being "The Creator of multiverse Z."

1.) The Creator of multiverse Z creates the following:
A.) A universe that has a beginning with many outcomes, ie. multiverse Z.
B.) For each time point Ti from the beginning, there are choices X1 to Xi (i≥2).
C.) Each choice at time point Ti leads to a different set of choices after Ti.
D.) Because the Creator of multiverse Z has created each choice and event in multiverse Z, the creator of multiverse Z is aware of all events with respect to multiverse Z at any time point, irrespective of the choice made at time point Ti.
E.) Creator Z creates the emergence of agent A with free will into multiverse Z at time point Ti (i=1 with respect to agent A not the multiverse Z).
F.) Agent A with free will becomes aware of past events, is aware of his present situation, and knows the future is coming, but is unable to be aware of the future.
G.) Because agent A has free will and choices X1 to Xi (i≥2) at timepoint Ti (i≥2), it is logically impossible for the Creator to know the choice of agent A until the choice is made even though the Creator is aware of all events in multiverse Z.

Therefore, Creator of multiverse Z can logically co-exist with agent A with free will and know everything that is logically knowable of multiverse Z. Creator of multiverse Z can also logically do whatever it wills to do and suffers nothing it does not will to suffer.

Parang contradicting ata yung letter D at G.

PS. sana straight to the point na answer mu ah, na no-nosebleed ako sayo eh

BTW. not knowing what will be the choice of Agent A and it's outcome, is not an Omniscience God.

I know there are gazillion choices, events, outcomes... but I don't know which one of those will be.

[sam_wel]

im having a hard time gauging why would free will contradict an omniscient?

if i have a free will, and tomorrow, at one point decided to kill my dog, does that invalidate an omniscient?

i guess not.

god being omniscient, is not limited with time. he just simply knows, since he is not stuck with the present, that tomorrow, i am going to kill my dog.

[dhanzboy]

Originally Posted by sam_wel

im having a hard time gauging why would free will contradict an omniscient?

if i have a free will, and tomorrow, at one point decided to kill my dog, does that invalidate an omniscient?

i guess not.

god being omniscient, is not limited with time. he just simply knows, since he is not stuck with the present, that tomorrow, i am going to kill my dog.

if free will doesn't contradict god's omniscient, then why did god get angry on the people who worshiped other deities in the bible? tulad ng sabi mo, alam ng diyos ang mangyayari ngunit walang magawa dahil nasa present time sya. pero bakit sya nagalit sa mga tao nung sumamba sa huwad na diyos gayung alam naman nya na sasambahin ng ibang tao ang diyos diyosan? he saw it, but then he was surprised and did nothing to prevent it. god let it be but gives punishment to the people because he was mad. kung alam mo ang mangyayari sa hinaharap, bakit ka magagalit sa mga mangyayari gayong alam mo naman ito bago pa mangyari ito? tapos meron pang all loving god but gives punishment and deaths.

[rafh27]

@dhanzboy
diba nasabi ko na to noon sb mate kung ano ibig sabihin ng all-loving God?
saan thread ba yun?

The love of God or all-mercy is only in the day of Judgement not in the life of this world, except to the prophet/messengers.

to whom mercy that God bestowed?
-to those believers in the day of Judgement..

yun punishment naman is to the sinners and disbelievers...

[mightymarc]

He knew that a snake will successfully dupe Eve into takin a bite and that the couple he created will end up being thrown out of the Garden.
He knew that after he favored one of the brother's offering, that one would commit murder.
He knew that all their descendants will be so corrupted, he'll end up killing every other breathing soul on the face of the earth and start all over again.
He knew he would send himself/son to die on the cross.
He knew his best Angel will turn on him and will take more of his precious creation to damnation.

This god must be sooo bored to have known these things would happen but let them happen anyway. Fun times!

[rafh27]

Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on
earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place
therein one who will make mischief
therein and shed blood?- whilst we do
celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy
(name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not." [2:30]

mag reklamo na ang mag reklamo,
surely it will not help it in the day of Judgement...

this is the reality in the day of judgement
suratul Al-A'Raf

38. (Allah) will say: "Enter you in the company of nations who passed away
before you, of men and jinns, into the
Fire." Every time a new nation enters,
it curses its sister nation (that went
before), until they will be gathered all
together in the Fire. The last of them will say to the first of them: "Our
Lord! These misled us, so give them a
double torment of the Fire." He will
say: "For each one there is double
(torment), but you know not."

39. The first of them will say to the last of them: "You were not better
than us, so taste the torment for what
you used to earn."

47. And when their eyes will be turned towards the dwellers of the
Fire, they will say: "Our Lord! Place us
not with the people who are Zalimun
(polytheists and wrong-doers)."

48. And the men on Al-A'raf (the wall) will call unto the men whom
they would recognise by their marks,
saying: "Of what benefit to you were
your great numbers (and hoards of
wealth), and your arrogance against
Faith?"

51. "Who took their religion as an amusement and play, and the life of
the world deceived them." So this Day
We shall forget them as they forgot
their meeting of this Day, and as they
used to reject Our Ayat (proofs,
evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.).

jazakallahu khaer