Atheists and Agnostics Meeting Place

[GarapataSaBuwan]

Ang Catholic Church pala ay may official na stance tungkol sa inclusivism:

Nevertheless, God, who desires to call all peoples to himself in Christ and to communicate to them the fullness of his revelation and love, "does not fail to make himself present in many ways, not only to individuals, but also to entire peoples through their spiritual riches, of which their religions are the main and essential expression even when they contain ‘gaps, insufficiencies and errors'". Therefore, the sacred books of other religions, which in actual fact direct and nourish the existence of their followers, receive from the mystery of Christ the elements of goodness and grace which they contain.

- part ng Dominus Iesus (2000), isang declaration na may signature ni then-cardinal Ratzinger at may express approval ni Pope John Paul II

Sa simpleng tingin, parang contradictory na naman siya, at parang nakakapagpaliit o outright na nine-negate ang necessity ng sacraments. Anong input/insight/opinion niyo sa "anonymous Christian" na concept na ito? Especially si sevenshadows na may experience sa interfaith dialogue.

 

[ronell10]

Boom! Score one for the de facto theists against one claiming to be one of their own.

Still does not change the fact that the fairytale book is still written by man and not by the god himself though so there could be errors

a powerful being cannot right a book

yan tuloy ang gulo gulo lang

 

[darts090]

di naman ako theist

pinakita ko lang ang verses ng comic book kung san nagsasabi na omniscient yung superhero nila

 

[renmazuo274]

di naman ako theist

pinakita ko lang ang verses ng comic book kung san nagsasabi na omniscient yung superhero nila

Doink, my bad.

 

[grey_houndz]

Doink, my bad.

hehe, si Darts isa sa sinaunang atheist dito sa symb na nakita ko.

 

[PINOY_RADICAL]

I believe there are no absolute truths, and a supreme being's existence is merely a possibility

How do you came up with that conclusion? Are you saying that reality is NOT an absolute truth? --that the law of gravity is not an absolute truth?

Let me tell you that, A = A is an absolute truth.

 

[sivre009]

^
Hahaha, I think he was referring to other branches of science, or knowledge?

 

[greyhame]

How do we know what reality really is? What if all of this is some evil demon's tricks who are deceiving us into thinking that things are true (according to Descartes).
Or maybe we are all in The Matrix, and we all took Morpheus' blue pill.
As for gravity, a physicist has put out a theory that gravity is an illusion.
Here's the article in the nytimes.
Just sayin'--I don't mean to start anything. =)
Good morning, guys.

 

[GarapataSaBuwan]

How do we know what reality really is? What if all of this is some evil demon's tricks who are deceiving us into thinking that things are true (according to Descartes).
Or maybe we are all in The Matrix, and we all took Morpheus' blue pill.
As for gravity, a physicist has put out a theory that gravity is an illusion.
Here's the article in the nytimes.
Just sayin'--I don't mean to start anything. =)
Good morning, guys.

Whether nasa Matrix tayo o nasa "reality" ni Morpheus, parehong perception lang yun sa isang absolute reality. Kumbaga, the world (o universe) as we see it ay hindi ang eksaktong nakikita ng isang aso, o earthworm, pero not one perception is more "real" than any of the others. Paano ang isang theoretical na alien being na iba kunwari ang frequency ng electromagnetic waves na "nakikita"? Ibang-iba malamang ang perception nila sa universe. If gravity is theorized to be an illusion, it still works as far as we are concerned, diba?

So parang ang "reality" lang only goes as far and as LONG as we can perceive it (kasi habang tumatagal lumalawak din ang pag-intindi natin sa "reality" na ito), and by extension, yung pag-intindi natin sa tools na ginagamit natin (including science). Baka ang mas praktikal na pagtuunan ng pansin ay yung ever-widening na BOUNDARY na yun, pero ang totality, ang "absoluteness":

1) kung infinite man, hindi gaanong useful sa atin na pag-ubusan ng energy;
2) kung finite naman, unti-unti din naman nating mararating;
3) kung naman peke at forced upon us ala-Matrix o by isang trickster demon, unless kontakin tayo ni Morpheus hindi naman siya magiging relevant sa perceived existence natin. :P

Opinyon lang po. :P

 

[greyhame]

So what we think is "absolute reality" right now is actually temporary (maybe), until something--or if a "Morpheus" contacts us--comes along.
So it's really not correct to call it absolute reality, then.
Just reality, for now.
There are a great many possibilities out there, aren't there?

And I really have to get back to work; I get easily sidetracked, hehe.
Thanks. =)

 

[sevenshadows]

Ang Catholic Church pala ay may official na stance tungkol sa inclusivism:



Sa simpleng tingin, parang contradictory na naman siya, at parang nakakapagpaliit o outright na nine-negate ang necessity ng sacraments. Anong input/insight/opinion niyo sa "anonymous Christian" na concept na ito? Especially si sevenshadows na may experience sa interfaith dialogue.

In the Philippine setting that part is only within Christianity and is one of the primary factors for unification talks. The truth is in here the sacraments are rarely mentioned. Filipino protestants are largely ignorant of their own theological and ministerial history which is a setback even before approaching the door. The most discussed topic is about authority. The funny thing is at top level most of the talks are about politics.

On the Muslim side in the Philippines until about 2003 the view is that there is just one Muslim group. As majority of Filipino Islamic adherents refer to themselves exclusively as "the Muslims." The Internet, the Iraq War (for which the Philippines/Filipinos were involved), and the influx of Persian foreign exchange students introduced the concept of "diversity and differences" within Islam. Until about 2005 we still hear the predominance and influence of the moderate Al-Azhar Mufti. Right now it has shifted as many Filipino Muslims study in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia and has become sympathetic to Al-Qaeda (a group that Al-Azhar has condemmed). Anyway...

If we hear "unified positions" or "joint statements" of various sects in the news it is about a secular position not religion. (sometimes a bad thing)

For me incluvism is a "consuelo de bobo" for excluvism which is the real deal. This system, again for me, is proof that religious authority is nothing more but an obstacle for harmonious living.

 

[PINOY_RADICAL]

So what we think is "absolute reality" right now is actually temporary (maybe), until something--or if a "Morpheus" contacts us--comes along.
So it's really not correct to call it absolute reality, then.
Just reality, for now.
There are a great many possibilities out there, aren't there?

And I really have to get back to work; I get easily sidetracked, hehe.
Thanks. =)

Even if we are living in a simulated world, you cannot change the fact that reality is an absolute truth --that A=A is an absolute truth. Just because something is simulated does not mean it is not real. Of course it is real, it keeps happening, regardless if it's simulated or not. It happens and you are in the middle, aware of what's happening. Still, reality is an absolute truth.
For instance, in computing, a virtual is something does not exist physically but it does not mean it is not real. If I open the Notepad application and write a sentence on it, then save it on my drive. The *.txt file is virtual, but it exists. It's represented as 0's and 1's on my hard drive. It's real

 

[mightymarc]

absolute, expressing finality with no implication of possible change... something that is not relative.

baka yan yun point ni greyhame, yun reality natin is relative to how we see/perceive it. gaya ng sabi ni garapata, "Paano ang isang theoretical na alien being na iba kunwari ang frequency ng electromagnetic waves na "nakikita"? Ibang-iba malamang ang perception nila sa universe"

kaya "reality" lang daw dapat sabi ni greyhame. hindi absolute reality

of course i might be wrong

 

[greyhame]

If something is simulated, then it would not be real, only our perception of it is real--we just think it is real. This is akin to swallowing the blue pill.

It is then not ABSOLUTE, as there may be other versions of reality out there.

Reality, truth--these are relative.

When we say that there are no absolute truths, it's because we are basically skeptics, and we adhere to the concept of relativism, which states that "points of view have no absolute truth or validity, having only relative, subjective value according to differences in perception and consideration."
This concept is in contrast to absolutism, which states that there can only be one and correct view.
Both schools of thought have their own adherents, both have their own critics.

For a relativist then, the sentence," There is no absolute truth," could be a paradox, as even this sentence may not also be true.

But I'm not sure. =)

What I'm sure, though, is that relativism can lead one to accept the point of view of others, or to tolerate other people with different views.
In other words, relativism can lead one to agnosticism.
So an honest-to-goodness Christian fundamentalist, or any religious extremist for that matter, should not stay within spitting distance of relativism, as this satanicconcept may lead him to accept the possibility of (gasp) not being right. =)
Oh, the horror.

 

[GarapataSaBuwan]

So what we think is "absolute reality" right now is actually temporary (maybe), until something--or if a "Morpheus" contacts us--comes along.
So it's really not correct to call it absolute reality, then.
Just reality, for now.
There are a great many possibilities out there, aren't there?

Even if we are living in a simulated world, you cannot change the fact that reality is an absolute truth --that A=A is an absolute truth. Just because something is simulated does not mean it is not real. Of course it is real, it keeps happening, regardless if it's simulated or not. It happens and you are in the middle, aware of what's happening. Still, reality is an absolute truth.
For instance, in computing, a virtual is something does not exist physically but it does not mean it is not real. If I open the Notepad application and write a sentence on it, then save it on my drive. The *.txt file is virtual, but it exists. It's represented as 0's and 1's on my hard drive. It's real

I think na yung pagkakaiba lang sa sinasabi niyong dalawa ay by point of view ng nagpe-perceive, pero in essence hindi nalalayo yung sinasabi niyo. Pareho actually ang ina-identify at tinutukoy niyong absolute reality, pero si GreyHame dinifferentiate lang yung absolute na yun from yung "perceived reality" in the sense na--very loosely--kung ano yung nakikita at naoobserve. Hindi niya dinedeny na may "absolute reality."

In his example, sinasabi niya na yung "simulated reality" ng Matrix ay isang deception; it is not "real." Pero ang reality nun na I don't think magdidisagree si Pinoy_Radical ay, "The simulated reality REALLY exists; it is TRUE that it DOES exist from my perspective as an outsider, but it is a deception, it is an untruth to those who are subject to its effects. As an outsider, only I can see the absolute reality of its simulation."

Ang point naman ni Pinoy_Radical, tinutukoy niya by virtue of being. "A=A" ika nga. So sa example niya na hindi kailangang magdifferentiate ng tumitingin dahil isa lang ang tumitingin, "My text file is a simulation represented by ones and zeroes, and it does REALLY exist."

 

[alvir17]

You people never fail to enlighten me. Sarap magbasa ng arguments pag nasa office.

 

[9Ten8ti]

Job 37:16

Do you know the balancings of the clouds,
the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge.

Psalm 147:5

Great is our Lord and mighty in power;
his understanding has no limit.

1 Samuel 2:3

Talk no more so very proudly,
let not arrogance come from your mouth;
for the LORD is a God of knowledge,
and by him actions are weighed.

Isaiah 55:9

For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Job 28:24

For he looks to the ends of the earth
and sees everything under the heavens.

1 John 3:19-20

By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

Hebrews 4:13

And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Isaiah 46:9

I am God, and there is none like me,
declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done.


Psalm 139:4

Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.

di mo ako nakuha. ang sabi ko walang claim si god na “I AM OMNISCIENCE OR ALL KNOWING” yung verses na post mo ay writers o mga sinaunang tao lang may claim yet never kang makakita ng verses that god said it.

 

[9Ten8ti]

"...yet wala ni isa totally understand da bible..." Kahit sabihin mong strong opinion mo lang, sinasabi mo pa rin na your God is the God of the Bible. Kung yung accounts sa Bible ay, according to you:

1) matinding imahinasyon lang, or
2) mayroong claims na ang "characters" lang niya ang nagclaim at hindi pala talaga galing kay God (response ni darts notwithstanding),

plus:

3) ginawa ng tao at kinompile ng tao para ngayon ay maging guide sa religion,

then I really don't know kung bakit mo pa kinailangang magbase sa Bible ng isang sobrang derived na paniniwala.

Dahil naniniwala pa rin ako sa mga propeta na sinugo ng dios at yung mga salita ng dios mismo at isinulat katulad nalang sa mga utos niya kay moses at sa ibang propeta pero pagdating sa imagination ng writers only or dahil ito ang sabi ng mga sinaunang tao ay talagang hati yung paniniwala ko dyan kasi nga ang tao ay sadyang mapaglikhang isip.

 

[lavaboy]

Kumana na naman si PR, ANG KULET! sinabi nang A is not always = A eh...backread!!!

edit:

o sige para spoon-fed na naman kayo:

start with "EINSTEIN'S THEORY OF RELATIVITY"...

 

[renmazuo274]

Ako rin lang nagumpisa ng "no absolute truth" eh di sawsaw na rin ako. Hehehe

Di ako ganun kalalim magisip. The reason why i believe that is because in my POV, reality depends on individual perception.

I dont believe that A is always equal to A. Depende ulit yan sa perception. Unless you specify what the A in your mind is, I, as an entirely different person, may have another A in mind which is different than yours. You may be thinking of an A as a letter of the alphabet (your reality) while in my mind, i see A as 01000001, a variable, a logo, anything, and that is my reality.

Gravity, a law. But, it may be possible that it can be defied openly in the future, therefore making it not absolute.

Come to think of it, even the "no absolute" argument may be a paradox in itself. Riddle me this: If there are no absolute truths, then it is absolute that there are no absolute truths. Yet nothing is absolute. Hehehe!

See any loopholes in this?