Atheists and Agnostics Meeting Place

[lavaboy]

para sa inyo, what do you think...?

is it better kung magkaroon na agad ng conclusion ang isang tao (being a theist/atheist) or mag-stay muna sa pagiging agnostic na open sa lahat ng ideas...?

Napakadaming misconception about atheism. There are even times that atheists themselves have a "relatively" wrong understanding of atheism per se. Be reminded of the term "EXTRIMIST" e.g. muslim extremist, christian extremist, atheism extremist(?) which may form some kind of CULT. Now this is obviously beyond the boundaries of sensible definitions. So let's stick to the mainstreams instead of the extremes when it comes to definitions.

True "atheists" do not say "absolutely there is no god"... true atheists say "i refuse to believe in god until someone prove that there is" (which most likely would not happen therefore by default: i believe there is no god as of the meantime and so i will live my life knowing there is no god).

"true" AGNOSTICS live their lives "practically" as ATHEISTS (by virtue of the proper definition of "atheism", not the misconstrued one). For NO ONE can can describe or define the "ABSOLUTE", so technically all atheists are actually AGNOSTICS by virtue of science.

to put it concisely: ATHEISTS are technically AGNOSTICS; AGNOSTICS are practically ATHEISTS.

If you are still confused on the concept, just ask and I'll try to clarify.

depende pa rin yan sa tao. ako, i will remain an agnostic hangga't walang absolute, undisputable proof sa claims ng either side

Which is the precisely the only logical stance to adopt. That is why it is not the technical definition that matters, but the practical one. It is how one lives his/her life and what are the basis of one's decision and judgement.

teka muna mga ate at kuya..pagkaintindi kobsa agnostic eh naniniwala sa presence ng isang ultimate being pero ang atheist ito yong sa science at logic lang naniniwala.tama bako?
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I'm sorry but both statements are misconceptions.

Agnostics refuse to believe in anything without proof (and so do atheists). It is more of just a matter of CONVICTION. Atheists will give you a "harder" stance regarding their views because atheists believes faith is "far-fetched" whereas the "more open" agnostics will offer you a "kinder" stance. But they will both boil-down to be having the same "intellectual" stance: SCIENCE and LOGIC... not faith.

 

[r a Z e]

Napakadaming misconception about atheism. There are even times that atheists themselves have a "relatively" wrong understanding of atheism per se. Be reminded of the term "EXTRIMIST" e.g. muslim extremist, christian extremist, atheism extremist(?) which may form some kind of CULT. Now this is obviously beyond the boundaries of sensible definitions. So let's stick to the mainstreams instead of the extremes when it comes to definitions.

True "atheists" do not say "there is no god"... true atheists say "i refuse to believe in god until someone prove that there is" (which most likely would not happen).

"true" AGNOSTICS live their lives "practically" as ATHEISTS (by virtue of the proper definition of "atheism", not the misconstrued one). For NO ONE can can describe or define the "ABSOLUTE", so technically all atheists are actually AGNOSTICS in nature.

to put it concisely: ATHEISTS are technically AGNOSTICS; AGNOSTICS are practically ATHEISTS.

If you are still confused on the concept, just ask and I'll try to clarify.

ahh... now i know. i got what you mean sir. mukhang biktima din ako ng misconceptions na yan

thanks for the explanation

 

[lavaboy]

ahh... now i know. i got what you mean sir. mukhang biktima din ako ng misconceptions na yan

thanks for the explanation

Always welcome, sir.

Isa pang misconception is all atheist are "closed-minded and arrogant". Well, what I can say is everything or every experience is relative to the one experiencing it. May mga taong mas sensitive kesa iba. May mga taong hyper-sensitive din pero para sa sarili naman nila e hindi. So, hypothetically, kung majority ng tao ay "sensitive" sa ideas ng kokonti, natural ang definition ng "arrogance" ng maraming tao na yun ay iba sa definition ng kokonting hindi sensitive.

Tignan nyo na lang sa "cultural" context. Ang mga hapon madaling madisrespect sa mga "gestures" na hindi nila nakagisnan. At ang mga "customs" nila na hindi ginagawa ng foreigner para sa kanila ay may "kabastusan". Sa pilipino, ang hindi pagmamano o hindi pagsasalita ng po at opo ay simbolo ng pagiging walang galang. Pero para sa mga westerners, wala namang isyu sa kanila.

Ibig kong sabihin, mas madalas ma-interpret ng iba na a "dominant personality" is an "arrogant personality" just because they feel being over-powered. In my opinion, madalas sinasabi ng mga non-agnostic/atheist na nabastos sila when their "ignorance" is being addressed na nangyayari lang naman pag wala sa proper decorum ang pagtatanong nila. In short: sila ang unang nambabastos at ginagantihan lang sila at pag nasukol intellectually (of course) dadaanin sa "personality attack" ang usapan. simple lang naman ang rule: PROPER QUESTION, PROPER ANSWER. THIS IS OUR HOUSE, ABIDE BY "OUR RULES". Whether those rules are absurd to the visitor or not.

OT: oops, gotta remove those commercial signatures again. pardon my frequent editing.

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But frankly, I admit being relatively more arrogant than most, especially when I feel "dumb-dumbs" are being more confident than they are entitled to.

 

[ifer]

Napakadaming misconception about atheism. There are even times that atheists themselves have a "relatively" wrong understanding of atheism per se. Be reminded of the term "EXTRIMIST" e.g. muslim extremist, christian extremist, atheism extremist(?) which may form some kind of CULT. Now this is obviously beyond the boundaries of sensible definitions. So let's stick to the mainstreams instead of the extremes when it comes to definitions.

True "atheists" do not say "absolutely there is no god"... true atheists say "i refuse to believe in god until someone prove that there is" (which most likely would not happen therefore by default: i believe there is no god as of the meantime and so i will live my life knowing there is no god).

"true" AGNOSTICS live their lives "practically" as ATHEISTS (by virtue of the proper definition of "atheism", not the misconstrued one). For NO ONE can can describe or define the "ABSOLUTE", so technically all atheists are actually AGNOSTICS by virtue of science.

to put it concisely: ATHEISTS are technically AGNOSTICS; AGNOSTICS are practically ATHEISTS.

If you are still confused on the concept, just ask and I'll try to clarify.



Which is the precisely the only logical stance to adopt. That is why it is not the technical definition that matters, but the practical one. It is how one lives his/her life and what are the basis of one's decision and judgement.



I'm sorry but both statements are misconceptions.

Agnostics refuse to believe in anything without proof (and so do atheists). It is more of just a matter of CONVICTION. Atheists will give you a "harder" stance regarding their views because atheists believes faith is "far-fetched" whereas the "more open" agnostics will offer you a "kinder" stance. But they will both boil-down to be having the same "intellectual" stance: SCIENCE and LOGIC... not faith.

Is this your own definition? Medyo hmm close naman nga ang relationship nung dalawa kaya nga minsan akala ng karamihan eh atheist ako which is not true only because I need a little proof muna bago ko sabihing pinapaniwalaan ko ang isang bagay.
But your definition is helpful and clear enough to summarize it.

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Always welcome, sir.

Isa pang misconception is all atheist are "closed-minded and arrogant". Well, what I can say is everything or every experience is relative to the one experiencing it. May mga taong mas sensitive kesa iba. May mga taong hyper-sensitive din pero para sa sarili naman nila e hindi. So, hypothetically, kung majority ng tao ay "sensitive" sa ideas ng kokonti, natural ang definition ng "arrogance" ng maraming tao na yun ay iba sa definition ng kokonting hindi sensitive.

Tignan nyo na lang sa "cultural" context. Ang mga hapon madaling madisrespect sa mga "gestures" na hindi nila nakagisnan. At ang mga "customs" nila na hindi ginagawa ng foreigner para sa kanila ay may "kabastusan". Sa pilipino, ang hindi pagmamano o hindi pagsasalita ng po at opo ay simbolo ng pagiging walang galang. Pero para sa mga westerners, wala namang isyu sa kanila.

Ibig kong sabihin, mas madalas ma-interpret ng iba na a "dominant personality" is an "arrogant personality" just because they feel being over-powered. In my opinion, madalas sinasabi ng mga non-agnostic/atheist na nabastos sila when their "ignorance" is being addressed na nangyayari lang naman pag wala sa proper decorum ang pagtatanong nila. In short: sila ang unang nambabastos at ginagantihan lang sila at pag nasukol intellectually (of course) dadaanin sa "personality attack" ang usapan. simple lang naman ang rule: PROPER QUESTION, PROPER ANSWER. THIS IS OUR HOUSE, ABIDE BY "OUR RULES". Whether those rules are absurd to the visitor or not.

OT: oops, gotta remove those commercial signatures again. pardon my frequent editing.

- - - Updated - - -

But frankly, I admit being relatively more arrogant than most, especially when I feel "dumb-dumbs" are being more confident than they are entitled to.

Ito iyong madalas kong makita doon sa isa pang forum na pinagpopostan ko rin. Kahit iyong mga atheist dun minsan ganun din ang attack pag wala na sila maisagot dun sa post nung mga theist.I mean it's just an observation that I find too dumb kasi nalalayo na sa totoong konsepto ng gustong pag-usapan.
I just observed that the problem with most atheist, is because they are more keen to science they take that as an advantage to appear superior than the theist who believes more on "faith acquired knowledge" . Syempre if you have beliefs and faith na hindi kayang patunayan ng syensya you appear less intelligent sa view ng isang atheist.
Personally, nag oobserve lang ako.Kung alin sa tingin ko at panukat ng konsensiya ko na tama doon ako. Feeling ko nga I am a lukewarm Theist and part atheist..ewan

 

[dhanzboy]

nabuhay ang thread at may pinag uusapan na ulit.......

wag lang sana may sumingit na pasaway he he he.........

 

[r a Z e]

Ito iyong madalas kong makita doon sa isa pang forum na pinagpopostan ko rin. Kahit iyong mga atheist dun minsan ganun din ang attack pag wala na sila maisagot dun sa post nung mga theist.I mean it's just an observation that I find too dumb kasi nalalayo na sa totoong konsepto ng gustong pag-usapan.
I just observed that the problem with most atheist, is because they are more keen to science they take that as an advantage to appear superior than the theist who believes more on "faith acquired knowledge" . Syempre if you have beliefs and faith na hindi kayang patunayan ng syensya you appear less intelligent sa view ng isang atheist.
Personally, nag oobserve lang ako.Kung alin sa tingin ko at panukat ng konsensiya ko na tama doon ako. Feeling ko nga I am a lukewarm Theist and part atheist..ewan

baka isa kang agnostic theist ms.ifer...?

 

[ifer]

nabuhay ang thread at may pinag uusapan na ulit.......

wag lang sana may sumingit na pasaway he he he.........

hello nakikisawsaw lang dito

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baka isa kang agnostic theist ms.ifer...?

well some categorized me as agnostic nga daw.. kaya nga iyong una kong tanong for clarification when i get in here is iyong differentiation muna ng atheist at agnostic.Nasabi ko nga doon na i believe in the existence of a supreme being but all other phenomena like catastrophes, typhoons, earthquake i believe has scientific explanations.(Most theist either blame/ask mercy to god or maybe everything attributed to a god.)

 

[dhanzboy]

mukha atang pinagtutulungan ng husto si juan tamad sa ibang thread?

pero di naman nila masagot ng diretso ang mga tanong ni juan....


bwa ha ha......

 

[renmazuo274]

mukha atang pinagtutulungan ng husto si juan tamad sa ibang thread?

pero di naman nila masagot ng diretso ang mga tanong ni juan....


bwa ha ha......

Puro diversion nakikita ko e

 

[dhanzboy]

Puro diversion nakikita ko e

iilan nga lang ang nabasa kong post na may sense. bilang na bilang sa daliri eh he he he.......

 

[ifer]

Hi senyo
so ano ba ang makabuluhan sa hindi sa view ng mga tulad niyo dhanzboy at rhenma?parang nakakahiya tuloy magpost dito sa thread na to

 

[lavaboy]

baka isa kang agnostic theist ms.ifer...?

and to @ifer too:

By some definitions, probably yes. lalo na kung ibabase sa diagram na to:
View attachment 167007

So in a purely technical sense (base na din sa etymology nung terms):

1. the prefix "a-" means "absence" or "without"; lacking, etc...:

2. "gnosis" - knowledge

3. theism - beleif in god

so:

1. agnostic's position - "it cannot be ascertained" because we "lack the know-how (knowledge)"
2. atheist's position - "i am without belief in god" (not the same as "i' know there is no god")

You see, it's not proper to use these 2 terms as different kinds of belief system. For one, "agnostic " is an adjective. An adjective defines a "noun" so that noun for example may be "theist" or "atheist", thus the term "agnostic theist" or "agnostic atheist". Which in this case only denotes "weakness in adherence to a certain belief (to either theism or atheism)"

"atheism" on the other hand, is a belief system. It is the position you are "leaning towards" which in this case "lack of belief in a god/gods" in contrast to "belief in god/gods" which is the case in "theism".

Eto pa from wiki:

Defining agnosticism

Thomas Henry Huxley said:[11][12]

Agnosticism, in fact, is not a creed, but a method, the essence of which lies in the rigorous application of a single principle ... Positively the principle may be expressed: In matters of the intellect, follow your reason as far as it will take you, without regard to any other consideration. And negatively: In matters of the intellect do not pretend that conclusions are certain which are not demonstrated or demonstrable.

According to philosopher William L. Rowe, in the strict sense, agnosticism is the view that human reason is incapable of providing sufficient rational grounds to justify either the belief that God exists or the belief that God does not exist.[2]

Therefore, it is my personal belief that all "atheist" are technically "agnostic atheists". WHY? because all atheists "refuse to believe in god" and at the same time knows "that there can be no way to give compelling proof for its justification".

At the same time, I don' think there practically exist "agnostic theist" because theism requires an enormous amount of faith in order to adhere in the belief of such "personal gods" which certainly contradicts the "objectiveness" of the principles /concept of agnosticism.

Therefore in @ifer's case, posible naman na "DEIST" ka. An agnostic DEIST.

All in all, what matters is how one "practically live life". Do you live with "fear of god" or "without"? Remember, "fear of god has nothing to do with "morality" or "being good".

 

[renmazuo274]

Hi senyo
so ano ba ang makabuluhan sa hindi sa view ng mga tulad niyo dhanzboy at rhenma?parang nakakahiya tuloy magpost dito sa thread na to

you don't have to. we take in anything logical in nature. we ask questions, we expect answers within the bounds of the question. you can do the same.

you can post stuff, we answer the question directly whenever we can. we redicule typical diversionary tactics, lalo na yung mga akala mo kung sino makasapaw pero wala naman hulog mga sinasabi (meron gumagalang ganun ngayon dito sa TnB, madali siya makita based sa mga post nya). it's a given, some of us here are a bit abrasive, you can ignore them.

again, we are very big on logic and hard facts. you got a claim that looks like a fairy tale in our eyes, you can back it up with hard evidence. palitan lang ng tanong at sagot, basta walang initan ng ulo/personalan. you can take mr. lavaboy's way of answering for example. ganyan magpost yan, pero pag kabobohan ibabanat mo, lalo pag personal, instant laughing stock ka sa paningin nyan (sa amin din) until you straighten up.

 

[lavaboy]

100% amen to renma's reply.

If there is one self-proclaimed "agnostic" personality here in this section, sya yung nagfifit dun sa definition ko above ng isang agnostic. Purely logical arguments and factual evidence ; no inclination to theism at all, as far as I can remember (or rejects discourse on topics of theism that are unresolvable). Kaya nga I would even consider him an agnostic atheist in principle, if you'll ask me. That is because of the same manner we consider things. However I am more explicit (can I say "fearless"?) in categorizing my self an "atheist" because of the practical implication...more than that of the technicality.

Deists, which are actually a little more farther away on the atheism scale than agnostics, are actually more on our side of the logical argument.

And I admit, you can count me as "evil" once a theist debater embark on the "dark side" or arguing. I enjoy the "sadism" of giving them what they are asking for

P.S. If anyone's still wondering if I'm agnostic or atheist, here is my answer:

I'm technically agnostic and practically atheist. If you want to call it "agnostic atheist", that's fine for me. But if you'll force me to choose one, I'll say "atheist", just to safely set my self apart from being mistaken as "there-is-sitill-hope-to-be-brought-back-to-faith".

I say that because many think that an agnostic is just someone who has "doubts" and is still "undecided whether to go left or right". I tell you that is not the case. Agnostics are quite convinced theism is far from being accurate, and the way to go is simply to say "I do not know the answer; no one knows the answer; don't force me to believe in what you say; I'll decide when I need to decide; for now, it practically doesn't matter much".

 

[dhanzboy]

Hi senyo
so ano ba ang makabuluhan sa hindi sa view ng mga tulad niyo dhanzboy at rhenma?parang nakakahiya tuloy magpost dito sa thread na to

para sakin, ang makabuluhang view ay ang mga usapin na may maayos na talakayan. give and take ika nga. pag may tinatalakay, pag usapan ng maayos at hindi yung puro banat ng banat lang na wala na sa hulog. pag napunta na sa usaping walang kahulugan, antipatiko na ang magiging pakikipag usap ko sayo.



feel free to post anything here as long na maayos ang magiging talakayan, at syempre siguraduhin mo rin na may sense ang magiging talakayan.

 

[jaiconruedas]

Ang liit ng bulsa ni doraemon, pero paano kaya nagkasya ang mga gadget nya dun?

Hi everyone., pasilip silip lang ako dito.
Si idol lava, evil talaga yan. Masususunog din yan sa dagat dagatang apoy.

Para sa akin ang makabuluhang pananaw ay yaong nagbibigay ng mga ideya na maaaring salungat sa aking naging pananaw, pero tinanggap dahil may katwiran.

 

[r a Z e]

good day sirs... padaan ulit.





naisip ko lang, since theism & atheism tsaka agnosticism na rin have ideas na connected kay God...

how about satanism? anong views niyo dito mga sir?

 

[jaiconruedas]

Satanism?

Well it's another religion. Like Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism....

Satan is enemy of God.

I don't believe in Satan... I think this entity is non existent. :P

 

[ervill20]

Sa mga Atheists at Agnostics bakit ganuun nalang ang pagkapuot nyu sa Diyos. May mga relihiyon nga na ginagamit ang pangalan nya para magkapera pero tama ba na magconclude kaagad? Baka need pa ng isang try na makilala sya, hindi sinasabing sumali kayu sa kahit anung relihiyon kundi sa sarili nyung paraan sa paghahanap ng katotohanan. Isa din ako sa inyu dati pero nahanap ko na ang sarili ko baka kayu din. Peace

 

[dhanzboy]

Sa mga Atheists at Agnostics bakit ganuun nalang ang pagkapuot nyu sa Diyos. May mga relihiyon nga na ginagamit ang pangalan nya para magkapera pero tama ba na magconclude kaagad? Baka need pa ng isang try na makilala sya, hindi sinasabing sumali kayu sa kahit anung relihiyon kundi sa sarili nyung paraan sa paghahanap ng katotohanan. Isa din ako sa inyu dati pero nahanap ko na ang sarili ko baka kayu din. Peace

galit ba? di naman.
napagtanto ko lang naman na mahirap ng paniwalaan ang tinutukoy mo para sakin. sabihin na nating nagising ako sa katotohanan na ang itinatak sa isipan ko mula noong bata pa ako ay hindi pala totoo.

ikaw bro, matanong kita, naniniwala ka pa rin ba kay santa claus?