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Atheists and Agnostics Meeting Place

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http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct...experience-not-evidence-is-real-clincher.html

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In ‘The Case for Christ,’ Experience, not Evidence, Is the Real Clincher
In his 2008 anti-religion documentary Religulous, Bill Maher was on a mission: His goal was to put religious people in their place once and for all by demonstrating how ridiculous and harmful their beliefs are. With its sub–Michael Moore grandstanding and utter lack of self-awareness, it was an astonishingly foolish film. In lieu of mounting a serious investigation into what makes faith—and the faithful—tick, Maher preferred to point a camera at whichever believers would agree to sign a release, and then badgered and mocked them into oblivion. In only an hour and a half, Maher and his director conducted a master class in how to make a bad film about religion: Prize glibness over substance, treat people like props, and never interrogate your own assumptions.

Listen to CT’s interview with Lee Strobel on The Calling
Movies from Christian film studio Pure Flix are on a mission as well. As the studio’s stated purpose makes plain, they’re out “to influence the global culture for Christ through media,” and that single-minded approach is apparent in the media it produces and distributes. Pure Flix’s output and Maher’s Religulous couldn’t be farther apart on the ideological spectrum, but more often than not, they represent two sides of the same coin when it comes to their inability to conceive of a universe that doesn’t conform to all of their presuppositions. It’s a failure not only of imagination, but also of humility—a failure that may not trouble Maher, but should trouble Christians.

It’s a relief, then, to find that Pure Flix’s The Case for Christ, released in theaters last week, makes an effort to shed the constraints of the “faith-based film” in favor of a more well-rounded vision. The film may be only intermittently successful, but when it takes its own story seriously rather than treating it as a means to an end, it stands among the best films yet produced by the Christian film industry.

The Case for Christ is based on the best-selling book of the same title by Lee Strobel, which walks the reader through Strobel’s investigations into the factual basis for Christianity’s claims about Jesus Christ. As a rising-star journalist at the Chicago Tribune—and an atheist—Strobel sought to discredit Christianity by doing what he did best: interviewing experts, checking facts, and collating sources into a logical whole. The further he looked into the matter, though, the more convinced he became that the Bible was telling the truth about Jesus, and in the early 1980s, he converted to the faith.

The book is a work of apologetics (albeit with the stylistic trappings of a memoir), so the adaptation fleshes it out to make it work as a narrative feature rather than a documentary. Screenwriter Brian Bird’s great contribution here is to make Strobel’s marriage, rather than his investigation, the centerpiece of the story. As Strobel tells it in his book, his wife’s sudden conversion to Christianity was the bombshell that prompted his attempt to debunk Jesus’ resurrection. In the film, he isn’t engaging in an intellectual exercise or trying to score ideological points; he is fighting for the survival of his marriage. The tagline for The Case for Christ could just as well be that familiar Hollywood-trailer cliché: “This time, it’s personal.”

The film is at its best when it focuses on this conflict and leaves the apologetics on the sidelines. A viewer may or may not be personally convinced by the evidence presented to Strobel during his investigation, but that is beside the point. The more pressing question is this: Will Strobel be convinced? Will he overcome his reflexive contempt for his wife’s faith before their conflict tears their family apart?


We already know the answer, of course, because this is a Pure Flix movie called The Case for Christ, and our protagonist wrote the book on which it’s based. But Mike Vogel and Erika Christensen, in their roles as Lee and Leslie Strobel, inhabit the central dilemma compellingly enough to allow us to lay aside our knowledge of the outcome for the moment. The effect is further aided by the production design and cinematography, which, under director Jon Gunn’s guidance, seek to avoid the overlit, antiseptic visuals of the God’s Not Dead movies in favor of a plainer, darker look. In contrast to the artifice and sterile inspiration of most faith-based films, The Case for Christ offers a vision of reality that feels like—well, reality.

Alas, all that goes out the window when it comes time for the portions of the film that actually make the case for Christ. It is beyond the scope of a film review to evaluate the specific arguments and assumptions articulated by the people whom Strobel interviews, but regardless of their rhetorical and historical merits, the apologetics sequences make for bad cinema and bad storytelling. Periodically, the domestic melodrama and character development come to a screeching halt, superseded by enormous chunks of exposition that work better on a page than on a screen.

Gunn does his best to stage the interviews in an interesting way, but the results are nonetheless stilted, sometimes comically so. (A conversation with a medical professional, for example, is set in a laboratory with lots of doctors milling about, doing vaguely science-y things while ignoring the reporter who is distracting their boss with questions about the Crucifixion.) The audience is left with little to do other than twiddle their thumbs while they wait for the story to start rolling again.

During these interview scenes, the film unfortunately backslides into an all-too-familiar patronizing complacency. God’s Not Dead rightly received criticism for its simplistic portrayal of non-Christians, suggesting that Christianity’s empirical truth is so obvious that the only explanation for unbelief must be emotional dysfunction or willful ignorance. The Case for Christ avoids this pitfall by aligning the audience’s perspective and sympathy with an atheist protagonist: Strobel’s skepticism is complex, and is portrayed as such, at least to begin with. But the interview scenes have a flattening effect, reducing the knotty questions of faith to a series of propositions that are disposed of within a five-minute dialogue exchange. Strobel’s anger, confusion, and desperation to get to the bottom of Christianity melt away and are replaced with a bland certitude. Of course Christianity’s claims about Jesus are true—how could anyone believe otherwise?

Bird’s screenplay offers one possible answer to that question by having a psychologist character (Faye Dunaway, inexplicably) imply that fervent atheists all suffer from daddy issues (though she euphemistically uses the term “father wounds”). It’s a low point for the film, on par with Religulous’s sneering at religion as the last refuge of dullards who need affirmation from an “imaginary friend.” In that moment, The Case for Christ seems to forget that it’s a story about one atheist’s journey to faith, and instead becomes something much shabbier: a blunt instrument for use in debates.

This unevenness mars the film as a whole. On one hand, it wants to be a modest drama about one man’s spiritual odyssey; on the other hand, it wants to use that drama as a tool. The latter goal has a way of throttling the former. Good narrative art situates the audience within another person’s perspective, and what we see in that headspace is both gratifyingly strange and strangely familiar. When The Case for Christ gets out of its own way long enough to simply show us Strobel’s struggle with the changes around him and within him, it compels our interest. When it presses “pause” in order to explain why the evidence that convinces Strobel should be universally convincing, it falls inert.

Every writer encounters a certain maxim at some point while learning his or her craft: “Show, don’t tell.” The underlying principle is that a story is always stronger when it can make its audience feel something rather than simply instructing them how to feel. It’s no surprise, then, that The Case for Christ is strongest when it remains content to thoughtfully explore Strobel’s story. When it sets exploration to the side and wields that story like a sermon anecdote, the failure of imagination infects the filmmaking.

I hope that The Case for Christ’s successes, rather than its flaws, will nonetheless serve as a model for future faith-based films. In its climactic conversion scene, Lee Strobel attempts to pray, but stumbles over his inexperience: “God, I don’t know what I’m doing,” he laughs. That moment—honest, plain, and shot through with joy and humility—serves the film’s purposes better than all of its Bible experts combined. That’s what we really came to see.
 
The Case for Christ the film about a so-called atheist who investigates the arguments of Christianity by asking dubious questions against theists long trained in all the tricks of their trade. What else to expect. If you’re a Christian who wants a pat on the head and you don’t need to think too hard about the arguments given, that might work. For everyone else, it’s an unsurprising journey from lack of God belief to Christian faith with a greatest hits collection of weak Christian arguments. It would’ve been a lot more engaging if they’d handed out Bingo cards of ridiculous Christian arguments. It succeeds in nothing but affirming the cause of believers while drawing a lazy smile from more sophisticated unbelievers who are more adept at seeing thru the usual trickster devices.
 
do you think you can do better 'investigation' than that man? aside from surfing the net reading articles . did you do better than that atheist before?
 
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Any thinking atheist (and certainly most of them are) would have done better. I don't think it is your business what I do on the net, but yeah I make a living out of it—not just reading though, but contributing to content and other things besides, something that would not have been bad compared to that *atheist*. But aren't we diverting from the issue.... :)

If he had done a fraction of the kind of investigation I or other serious atheists have been doing, there's no way that kind of pat-in-the-head film would have gone the way it had. As it is, the work has all the hallmarks of an amateur and it shows.
 
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Nah. I'm referring to the seemingly drastic measures that Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman is currently implementing in Saudi Arabia. He has just detained key figures in his own family, including a billionaire investor who gets quite along well with Western VIPs and royalties. Now he's also aiming his gun at the all-powerful clerics, who used to have police powers and arrest anybody they deem anathemas to Islam. Clerics, for example, can arrest anyone in Saudi Arabia for doing anything that they deem is a slight to their interpretation of Islam. Everyone, including foreigners and expats, are afraid of them since they could wear civilian clothes and are everywhere.

Absolute monarchy + religious extremism = total control

You cannot trust a two faced person like Prince Mohammed bin Salman, he kidnapped, inprisoned or executed some of his royal family members. Those good news are just PR stunt for diversions.
 
Absolute monarchy + religious extremism = total control

You cannot trust a two faced person like Prince Mohammed bin Salman, he kidnapped, inprisoned or executed some of his royal family members. Those good news are just PR stunt for diversions.

Totally agree. Unless true representation occurs, this system is still bound to the personalities of leaders. Salman might appear to be the shining knight today, but who's to stop him being the agent of mass destruction tomorrow. Even with the positive changes broadcast all over the place.

The action against the clerics could be a good start to representation. Without it, all of these "changes" are heading for naught. Some observers are quick to point out he seems to be following the footsteps of Putin.
 
Totally agree. Unless true representation occurs, this system is still bound to the personalities of leaders. Salman might appear to be the shining knight today, but who's to stop him being the agent of mass destruction tomorrow. Even with the positive changes broadcast all over the place.

The action against the clerics could be a good start to representation. Without it, all of these "changes" are heading for naught. Some observers are quick to point out he seems to be following the footsteps of Putin.

Yes, but Putin doesn't need the blessings of his church. Also the Russian government still hates geys.
 
Yes, but Putin doesn't need the blessings of his church. Also the Russian government still hates geys.

The Russian Orthodoxy, in shambles after the religious persecutions starting in the Bolshevik Revolution, has never been in a position of power to pose any threat to Putin, unlike the clerics of Islam who have been there from the start holding Saudis by the neck from cradle to grave. Putin and many other Eastern Europeans carried many of the dogmas of bygone eras despite decades of unbelief in their lands, foremost among them their gender bias as you say. Well, perhaps the fact that Russia is under threat of negative population growth rate plays a big part in that mindset. Imagine if all Russian men fall for that lifestyle. China would be having a year-long party occupying the emptied lands of their erstwhile neighbor.

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It’s often said that some people are born believers, taking to religion in a way that ultimately boils down to intuition.

But new research suggests a belief in god does not come to us naturally.

In a series of studies, scientists examined the link between religious belief and intuition, using the responses of people involved in the famous Camino de Santiago pilgrimage, along with data from analytical tasks and brain stimulation exercises.

While some psychologists in recent decades have argued that people with strong religious beliefs tend to be more intuitive and less analytical, the study found there is no such link; instead, the researchers say a religious way of thought is learned.

In a new paper, published in the journal Scientific Reports, researchers from the universities of Coventry and Oxford argue that religious belief is not associated with intuition or rational thinking, as previous works have suggested.

‘What drives our belief in gods – intuition or reason; heart or head?’ said lead author Miguel Farias.

‘There has been a long debate on this matter but our studies have challenged the theory that being a religious believer is determined by how much individuals rely on intuitive or analytical thinking.’

The team interviewed participants of the Camino de Santiago de Compostela, in northern Spain – one of the largest pilgrimage routes in the world.

Participants were asked about the strengths of their beliefs, and the length of time they spent on the journey.

Then, the researchers used a probability task to assess their intuitive thinking.

The task required they choose between a logical choice, and one based on ‘gut feeling.’

In additional studies, the researchers used mathematical puzzles and brain stimulation to increase either intuition, or cognitive inhibition, which is thought to regulate analytical thinking.

The brains stimulation exercise involved a painless electrical current, which activated the region of the brain that controls inhibitory control.

According to the researchers, previous studies have suggested that atheists use this area of the brain more when attempting to suppress supernatural ideas.

Across the board, the team found that there was no link between intuitive thinking and supernatural belief.

And, brain stimulation – which did increase levels of cognitive inhibition – did not change levels of supernatural belief, suggesting there is no link between the two.

The findings suggest religious belief is a product of socio-cultural factors, such as upbringing and education.

The idea that belief in god is intuitive or natural is ‘premature,’ the researchers say.

‘We don’t think people are “born believers” in the same way we inevitably learn a language at an early age,’ Farias said.

‘The available sociological and historical data show that what we believe in is mainly based on social and educational factors, and not on cognitive styles, such as intuitive/analytical thinking.

‘Religious belief is most likely rooted in culture rather than in some primitive gut intuition.’


SOURCE


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How to Be Human by New Scientist
 

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‘Religious belief is most likely rooted in culture rather than in some primitive gut intuition.’

@Stormer0628 yes ako diyan sa sinabi mo , , ,:salute:
 
‘Religious belief is most likely rooted in culture rather than in some primitive gut intuition.’

@Stormer0628 yes ako diyan sa sinabi mo , , ,:salute:

Naalala ko lang yung mahabang diskusyon ko dati dito sa isang theist who claims that belief in a supernatural (god) is second nature daw sa tao. Before this study, may mga magagandang cases or arguments na rin naman to debunk this claim. For one, scientists already know that children are atheists until they are indoctrinated to follow their parents to their churches, synagogues, temples, or mosques of worship. This itself says it all. The corollary is where we are is who we are, backed up by another solid study in the past. It points out the stark reality that you don't expect a Christian in the midst of Middle East Muslim family and community. Conversion only comes later on and mostly follows migration, exposure to other cultures, beliefs, etc. The clinching argument is the presence of atheist tribes in the Amazon and before conversion, in Africa, which historians inform us in works centuries before African tribes made contact with Western or Islamic faiths. Bale icing in the cake na lang tong latest study na to, hehe.
 
children are atheists until they are indoctrinated to follow their parents to their churches

totoo yan ,,

at naobserbahan ko ,,napakadaling himukin ng tao sa gusto mong mangyari kapag ang isang tao ay nag hihirap o tadtad ng problema ,,

halimbawa = madalas o lagi itong nangyayari ,, sasabihin lang nila sa taong vulnerable , , tara umanib ka sa amin mag kakaroon ka agad ng trabaho ,,
at yung technique nila na mababangong salita sa mga vulnerable na tao,,na may kasamang paiyak iyak , , , ayy nakooo , ,sigurado kuha nila ,,ganyan ang nangyayari
hindi naman nila makuha yung malalakas ang isip ,,mga mahihina lang ang nakukuha nila


ang mga tao ngayon kapag may disgrasyang nangyari sa isang tao at naligtas , ,sasabihin salamat sa diyos at iniligtas sya ng diyos, , pero kapag namatay yung nadisgrasya , sasabihin nila god moves in a mysterious way ,,at ito "eh kasi siguroo makasalanan yan kaya namatay or kinuha na sya ng demonyo" , ,

dito sa Pilipinas sobrang tindi ng Brainwashing na nangyayari politics man o religion , , ,
 
children are atheists until they are indoctrinated to follow their parents to their churches

totoo yan ,,

at naobserbahan ko ,,napakadaling himukin ng tao sa gusto mong mangyari kapag ang isang tao ay nag hihirap o tadtad ng problema ,,

halimbawa = madalas o lagi itong nangyayari ,, sasabihin lang nila sa taong vulnerable , , tara umanib ka sa amin mag kakaroon ka agad ng trabaho ,,
at yung technique nila na mababangong salita sa mga vulnerable na tao,,na may kasamang paiyak iyak , , , ayy nakooo , ,sigurado kuha nila ,,ganyan ang nangyayari
hindi naman nila makuha yung malalakas ang isip ,,mga mahihina lang ang nakukuha nila


ang mga tao ngayon kapag may disgrasyang nangyari sa isang tao at naligtas , ,sasabihin salamat sa diyos at iniligtas sya ng diyos, , pero kapag namatay yung nadisgrasya , sasabihin nila god moves in a mysterious way ,,at ito "eh kasi siguroo makasalanan yan kaya namatay or kinuha na sya ng demonyo" , ,

dito sa Pilipinas sobrang tindi ng Brainwashing na nangyayari politics man o religion , , ,

Kaya nga di ba. Christianity is so ironic. In order to achieve glory, it needs people in a state of weakness, it needs to find people in the lowest point of their lives, then take advantage of them by shoving creeds down their throats. It needs victims. It needs to sacrifice somebody in the altar of pity orgasm. That is why poverty and religion always go hand in hand. When people learn to stand on their own and lift their economies, they soon get over the childish ways of their past difficult lives.
 
Kaya nga di ba. Christianity is so ironic. In order to achieve glory, it needs people in a state of weakness, it needs to find people in the lowest point of their lives, then take advantage of them by shoving creeds down their throats. It needs victims. It needs to sacrifice somebody in the altar of pity orgasm. That is why poverty and religion always go hand in hand. When people learn to stand on their own and lift their economies, they soon get over the childish ways of their past difficult lives.

absolutely Correct !! :thumbsup:

naiisip ko tuloy yung tao na tiga rito sa amin (tiyak maraming kagaya niya dito sa mundo) drug runner sya ,pero present lagi kapag fiesta ng Black Nazarene , , nadoon siya nakikihila,, nakikipag siksikan ,nakikipunas etc,, naisip ko paano nya napag sasabay yung masamng gawain saka paniniwala nya sa Diyos nila ??

ibig bang sabihin ay Stupid sya o yung mga kagaya nya ?? at paano sya natatanggap ng mga miembro sa religion nila??(kilang kilala sya sa illegal na gawain nayun) nakakapag taka nga di nahuhuli , , haiisssttt :slap:
 
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absolutely Correct !! :thumbsup:

naiisip ko tuloy yung tao na tiga rito sa amin (tiyak maraming kagaya niya dito sa mundo) drug runner sya ,pero present lagi kapag fiesta ng Black Nazarene , , nadoon siya nakikihila,, nakikipag siksikan ,nakikipunas etc,, naisip ko paano nya napag sasabay yung masamng gawain saka paniniwala nya sa Diyos nila ??

ibig bang sabihin ay Stupid sya o yung mga kagaya nya ?? at paano sya natatanggap ng mga miembro sa religion nila??(kilang kilala sya sa illegal na gawain nayun) nakakapag taka nga di nahuhuli , , haiisssttt :slap:

Maraming ganyan, hehe. Bantayan mo yung mga mahilig sumali sa penitensya, usually yan yung may mga criminal record or di pa lang nahuhuli. Usually they are marginalized people who could not find stable, long-term employment na napapasama na kung ano-anong gawain. Their conscience bothers them, but joining religious events usually self-flagellation gives them temporary relief. It's a vicious cycle. A poor economy drives them in the margins of society, and religion gives them an escape thru the creed that believing in their lord gives them easy access to the heaven of afterlife, their so-called sins erased off the record books. Parang si Barabbas, hehe. It becomes a social plague when they are involved in the heaviest of crimes and sends people to kingdom come earlier than they would have expected. People who have become anathema to social order find it easy to live with their crimes as long as they believe that their sins could be washed away by confessing JC is the one true lord. It's indecent but it's how it is in this religion.
 
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Maraming ganyan, hehe. Bantayan mo yung mga mahilig sumali sa penitensya, usually yan yung may mga criminal record or di pa lang nahuhuli. Usually they are marginalized people who could not find stable, long-term employment na napapasama na kung ano-anong gawain. Their conscience bothers them, but joining religious events usually self-flagellation gives them temporary relief. It's a vicious cycle. A poor economy drives them in the margins of society, and religion gives them an escape thru the creed that believing in their lord gives them easy access to the heaven of afterlife, their so-called sins erased off the record books. Parang si Barabbas, hehe. It becomes a social plague when they are involved in the heaviest of crimes and sends people to kingdom come earlier than they would have expected. People who have become anathema to social order find it easy to live with their crimes as long as they believe that their sins could be washed away by confessing JC is the one true lord. It's indecent but it's how it is in this religion.

nakakatawa diba,,parang yung isa ko na kasamahan sa trabaho , ,nag tanong ako sa kanya ,,kapag ba sinabi ng ministro nyo na kung sino iboboto nyo ,,susundin nyo ??ang sagot sa akin ay oo,, tanong ko ulit kapag sinabi na tumalon kayo sa tulay tatalon kayo? ,,hindi na kumibo,,he he he
tapos sabi ko paano kung nag kakasala kayo? sagot nya sa akin bastat sumamba o magsimba daw sila ,,mabubura na yung kasalanan , ,:rofl::rofl:

parang cartoons lang o kwento sa komiks he he he :upset:
 
nakakatawa diba,,parang yung isa ko na kasamahan sa trabaho , ,nag tanong ako sa kanya ,,kapag ba sinabi ng ministro nyo na kung sino iboboto nyo ,,susundin nyo ??ang sagot sa akin ay oo,, tanong ko ulit kapag sinabi na tumalon kayo sa tulay tatalon kayo? ,,hindi na kumibo,,he he he
tapos sabi ko paano kung nag kakasala kayo? sagot nya sa akin bastat sumamba o magsimba daw sila ,,mabubura na yung kasalanan , ,:rofl::rofl:

parang cartoons lang o kwento sa komiks he he he :upset:

Yan yung religious block vote. It should be banned in the country or anywhere else. It's all against the principle of separation of religion and state. Kaya dapat may tax na talaga religion, since active makialam sa pulitika. Or penalized. It's destroying the democratic fiber of the nation. Wasak na nga ... lalo pa sinisira.... :lol:

Matatapang na atheists sa US. Yung mga pulitiko malakas na loob outing themselves as atheists, and doing away with bible in oath-taking. Yung prime minister sa New Zealand atheist. haha
 
Yan yung religious block vote. It should be banned in the country or anywhere else. It's all against the principle of separation of religion and state. Kaya dapat may tax na talaga religion, since active makialam sa pulitika. Or penalized. It's destroying the democratic fiber of the nation. Wasak na nga ... lalo pa sinisira.... :lol:

Matatapang na atheists sa US. Yung mga pulitiko malakas na loob outing themselves as atheists, and doing away with bible in oath-taking. Yung prime minister sa New Zealand atheist. haha

dito sa Pilipinas matatagalan pa bago mabura ang itinanim nang mga kastila ,, more than 300 years nila itinanim sa utak ng mga Pilipino :upset: :ranting:
 
dito sa Pilipinas matatagalan pa bago mabura ang itinanim nang mga kastila ,, more than 300 years nila itinanim sa utak ng mga Pilipino :upset: :ranting:

Mahirap palayain ang mga taong walang malay na nakagapos pa rin sila, hehe. Pinalayas lang natin ang physical manifestations ng colonialism/imperialism, hindi yung mental/psychological manifestations. There is hope still, and it may well rest on how well the economy does well in the future. When people are no longer tied to the drudgery of daily living and have time to think and educate themselves, they'll have attained the liberation that their counterparts in the West have achieved for themselves. It's really ironic that the people who taught us their religion are now abandoning it in droves.

Anyway, it's that time of the week again for...





WEEKEND MUSINGS




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Mahirap palayain ang mga taong walang malay na nakagapos pa rin sila, hehe. Pinalayas lang natin ang physical manifestations ng colonialism/imperialism, hindi yung mental/psychological manifestations. There is hope still, and it may well rest on how well the economy does well in the future. When people are no longer tied to the drudgery of daily living and have time to think and educate themselves, they'll have attained the liberation that their counterparts in the West have achieved for themselves. It's really ironic that the people who taught us their religion are now abandoning it in droves.
don't worry in few years time religion will be on decline. or is it starting already? :lol:
 
don't worry in few years time religion will be on decline. or is it starting already? :lol:

it's happening big time. i'd like to see the latest demographics on the country tho. i wonder how the closet agnostics/atheists would react to their counterparts outing themselves as atheist/agnostic sa us and elsewhere. natawa ako meron pa galing sa church of flying spaghetti nag take ng oath wearing a colander. sa detroit, philadelphia, etc. pinag-uusapan ano gagawin sa mga abandoned churches and temples.
 
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